FatBeats: Behind The Counter
FatBeats has always been more than a record store and distributor - it’s the last stop for hip-hop. Behind the Counter invites you to join DJ Eclipse - who's been an integral part of FatBeats for nearly three decades - for unfiltered conversations with the architects of the underground. From legendary emcees and producers to the DJs and tastemakers who defined an era, we’re digging through the stories, the struggles, and the vinyl that built the scene and continue to drive the culture forward.
FatBeats: Behind The Counter
FatBeats: Behind The Counter Podcast Episode 5
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On Episode 5 of FatBeats' Behind The Counter Podcast, DJ Eclipse chops it up with legendary A&R's Monica Lynch, Dante Ross and Will Fulton. The conversation takes a look at the rich history of artists and labels that formed the foundation upon which these 3 individuals made their names.
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What's up, everyone? DJ Clips right here from Fat Beats, and this is the newest episode of Behind the Counter. And today we got a really, really, really, really, really good episode. We're gonna dive into some of the labels and the AR people behind them that actually helped build uh a lot of the artists that we've come to love. Uh so without further ado, my man to my right right here goes by the name of Will Fulton. You know what I'm saying? Was uh from uh a bunch of different places, but Blunt Records, Profile Records. Uh my man to my left right here, Dante Ross. You know what I'm saying? Some some Rushdown, Def Jam, some uh some Tommy Boy, some Lectra. Uh, and then all the way to the end over there, uh, Monica Lynch from Tommy Boy Records. Um, there's just so much rich history here between these three people, and we're looking forward to getting into this conversation today. So here we go. Welcome everyone.
SPEAKER_02What up, what up?
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Eclipse.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I'm happy y'all are here. You know, uh, shout out to Faith Newman as well, who was invited down but couldn't make it today out of town. She big timed us. She was out of town. I see you. I see you, Faith. But uh, you know, um some of you I know better than others, um, but just as a fan of the of hip hop and coming up as a as a teenager, you starting buying records from 79 with Rappa's Delight, you know, just seeing how everything kind of came about. Um Monica, I gotta start with you because I think of everyone here, like you came in first, you know, like you know, Tommy Boy uh started in 81. But did you start in 81 as well?
SPEAKER_00Or uh I was the first employee started in December of 81. Yeah. So I go back like taxi.
SPEAKER_02I saw Tom Sheldman last night on the street. That's so crazy. That's random. It was random. Yeah, it's random. Yeah, he had a random hat on.
SPEAKER_01And it's and so it begins. All right, so 1981, uh first employee hired a Tommy Boy. What was your ambition at that point? What were you doing? Did is that something you wanted to do? Was get into the music business, or was it just like a job or a fancy?
SPEAKER_00I you know what, I had a very sort of random uh life before that. I was uh working in Times Square as a topless dancer at some of your uh more elite uh establishments like Show World and Papeland, and uh you know, did my time working graveyard at the Empire Diner, and I came here from Chicago in 78. Um back in Chicago I was worked at a punk club and uh was in a band and was in a theater company and came here to do a modeling job uh when I used to be really, you know, back in the day, skinny skitty. Those days are long gone. But you know, so I came here in 78 when you know, lived on St. Mark's Place. Uh you know, living was cheap, and it was a great time to just hang out and see everything go to the mug club, then go to Studio 54. And yeah, it was quite the life. I lived in the Chelsea Hotel for a couple years. So I sort of came here when things were, you know, sort of post-punk and then was into the no-wave scene, and it was a great time.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00Uh, but I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do, and I came across an ad. I always love music, but who doesn't? I came across an ad in um The Village Voice. Uh it also ran the Times for Guy Gal Friday for Dance Music Report and a record company. Turns out it w Tom. I just started Tommy Boy, and I was uh persistent in trying to get the job. I didn't have a college degree or any of that stuff. But he brought me out to a Pexton uh record plant out in Long Island City. These two Polish brothers ran it uh to pick up the new release. And I started slinging 12 inches in the back of his hatchback. He's like, okay, she can put some back into it, so I guess you know she could get hired. And I had to keep working as a waitress though, because you know the the pay was pretty low.
SPEAKER_02Was Empire on 10th between 21st and 22nd? 22nd, 23rd.
SPEAKER_0020 and uh 21 and 22, I think it was the corner of 22nd and 10th.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Graveyard was the best shift to work too. You know, you get all these people from Plato's Retreat.
SPEAKER_02Right. Everyone went there out to the club. It was one of those. Wow.
SPEAKER_00Learned a lot there. You learn a lot waiting on tables.
SPEAKER_01Everyone should do it. 81, Dante, where were you? 81. I was waiting tables. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Tortilla flats.
SPEAKER_00Where on uh where was that?
SPEAKER_02It's in the West Village on Washington Street. Washington and I want to say Big Bank. Yeah, I worked there and and um and I had these friends who started getting who were making music. Uh 81, no, 81 actually. I was still in high school. I'm I'm I'm fucked up. 81 I was in high school. I I didn't graduate high school in 84, so yeah, I was still in high school. I was living in Brooklyn and Windsor Terrace, riding on trains and uh trying not to get arrested. Which I failed at pretty much. But yeah, I was I was yeah, I was a crazy kid. Skateboarding around, hanging in Washington Square Park, going to see Bad Rang shows at CB's, um, you know, grew up with like the beasties and the girls in Lesser Shacks, and then we were all like little kids who were like figuring it all out, and and we figured it out pretty early, man. We managed to be able to get in every club in New York by the time we were like 15 or so, and I went to like mud club and dance interior. I went to those places more than I went to school. You know, I barely graduated high school and I don't know. I kind of I figured out how to get him free everywhere really young, so I guess I was like a natural AR guy. I saw every band. Like any band, I'm like, oh, I saw him in 1981 or something. Yeah, I saw going out to shows in 1980 when I was 13, 14 years old. Um, I saw like the specials in Sham 69 when I was a little kid, so I was always into I was always obsessed with music. So that's what I was.
SPEAKER_01And and now was was uh Tommy Boy your entry point into No, no, certainly not.
SPEAKER_02I worked at Rush Productions for Lee Or Cohen and got screamed at like nine hours a day. I learned how to not act and how to act.
SPEAKER_01What what years was that?
SPEAKER_02Uh I started there I think in 86. Okay. 86, 87, um, after my stint as a surly waiter. Um and my friends, the Beastie Boys started getting famous. And uh I went out to eat brunch with them at Barney Greengrass. This is Brando. Eric Hayes was there, and I had this really pretty girlfriend and Leroy was all over. And I was like, listen, Frankenstein, it's not gonna happen. And and he liked me because I was like, I was like, no, I don't think so. I'm the I'm a cute kid later. And um, yeah, so he liked me and he gave me a job. And you know, Sean, the captain, rest in peace, cars off, co-signed me as did uh the rest of the knuckleheads, and that was it. That's why I started getting getting the shit thrown at me. Leroy was good at throwing things at people back then. He was he was uh he's not the same guy. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Well yeah, so I was a little later. I was one. Uh but uh my entrance into so I started out as an intern. I was an intern around 1990. My first internship was for Hank Shockley and Seoul Records when Seoul was two, I think it was two floors, it was on Broadway, uh two floors above the source. Okay, and so there were a lot of employees at Seoul that also wrote for the source, like Adori Strange, 580 Broadway, uh 584, something like that. So that in that area. So anyway, so so uh and uh and that was a real that was an incredible experience for me. It was just in a it was it was I was in the it was like four or five of us and we were just you know doing intern stuff, packaging up records and stuff. And Buckshot from uh Black Moon was one of the was one of the other people. And uh he was he he was they still had it uh the it was before the the beat miners did were doing their thing officially. So it was uh I think Chuck Chillot had made their demo and they were they were they were shot. And then I went and I went on and moved on from that to uh to intern at Jive for So Sophia Chang. And that was a really great experience. That was like a year and a half I was there and uh same things, uh, you know, uh listening to demos and and and you know dealing with tapes and dealing with the phone, but it was being a fly on the wall at Jive at that time was you know, everything from uh low end theory came out and BDP and all those records, and you know, like uh like I was on a fly on the wall for some of the like you know like crazy conversations that would happen between and I was just the intern in the room kind of thing. Uh and then uh you know, and then after that got my first job, which was uh doing the rap division for TBT records, was starting a rap division. I called it Blunt Blunt Records, Brian Leech. And they and they called me well, I was before that, but I but I came in and uh and you know, and then you know, connected with uh, you know, brought in my first acts there, and and that was where I really like let's talk about those acts. Well, okay, so so uh the first well the first one I signed an RB singer named Kim Swain, who went later went on to uh uh uh sing on Biggie's album, Biggie with Biggie and Little Kim. But then the first rapper I signed was Mike Geronimo, and that connect me connected me with Irv. And it was one of those great things. Like I was trying to think about what made that era so amazing. And you know, you were talking, we were talking about like '91, '93. Right. Um, and um what made that era so amazing? And it was like the way I saw it was now or the way I see it now. Back then I was just, you know, an arrogant kid, but the way I see it now was that you just had all these kids that had completely grown up in hip-hop, and they were like so many kids that were just nice, you know, as far as producers, as far as rappers. And you would meet these, and and just even, you know, from lyricist lounge, all these places, I'd see these MCs that I would never see and be, oh, who's that kid? That kid's nice, or or whatever. Uh, and so uh, and you know, and there were also kind of like uh just about before Woo, but it was like that generation where everybody started pressing up their own records and and and and and doing their own thing. And so, like uh Mike, uh Mike Geronimo and Irv, Irv had pressed up some some, yeah, she was real, and they had they had they had gotten it on WBLS. I'm not sure who was DJing, but but I was I I heard it and I and and I heard it uh on the radio at night, and I was like, who is that? And it was like, and then they they they sent me this press kit and Irv had written this. Irv had written this like like like an actual bio for Mike. I said, Do you write he wrote written this thing that was like Mike Mike, you know, like and it was great. And uh, and so it was just like that era. So it was like Mike Geronimo and then uh and then Cash Money Click with Ja. And then of course the TVT situation was was wild, was a wild ride, as you as you can imagine. And shout out Steve Gopley.
SPEAKER_02So uh doing Steve. Yeah, dude, that you do me. Thank you, Steve. So I ended up moving on. He had a lawsuit again, so because he put out the cartoon records, right?
SPEAKER_00He put out uh television credits.
SPEAKER_02That's where I met him. That's TV. That's where I met him too.
SPEAKER_03TV's lawsuit, television tunes, I guess.
SPEAKER_02TV TBT thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like it was crazy because I I was at TBT and I left, and Irv actually took my took my uh office. I wouldn't say he took my job. And then but I got and I got to profile just as uh, and I wouldn't say I took his job, but but as as uh Flex had just Flex had just left profile and they gave me his office. And so it was this weird, like, you know, it was that weird moment. But you know, it was also just like the perfect storm because you had made you had the majors that were investing because in part because they were like, well, we don't understand it, but we'll just keep trying things out. Sure, exactly. And then you had the indies that were still, I mean, they were um they were robbing people, but they were putting out a lot of records, and so that made it so that there was just this vibrant, there was just records everywhere, and there was like records everywhere, and there was um, you know, obviously the obviously all the mixed shows and everything. So it was like there was so much, it was so uh it was actually hard to get it was even hard to get a record to last on a mix show for a couple weeks because there were so many records and it was so much, you know, there was so much. That's how it is now. Crazy. There is no mix show. Crazy, but you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's funny because when you were signing Mike around that time, uh I was at Wild Pitch and we actually uh Mike and Irv came for a meeting with us. Yeah, and the day they came for the meeting with us was the day that we had the big incident with main source. Uh where main source and everybody and everyone and uh and Irv and Mike.
SPEAKER_00What was the big incident?
SPEAKER_01That's the thing with search and Mike and for those of us who aren't. Well, it was you know, I think the NDA is still in effect.
SPEAKER_00I don't know how long those things last, but I think they made up the audience would like to know about this.
SPEAKER_02If they hugged online, it's okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So there was uh an incident where main source were not happy um about how things were working. This is the second uh uh edition of the main stuff. This is the Large Pro main source. This is after Large Pro.
SPEAKER_022.0.
SPEAKER_01No, it's 2.0. Mikey D's dope. Shout out to Mikey D. Um, yeah, so it was Mikey D and Sir Scratch and K-Cut. And so, you know, people were were obviously used to main source for Large Professor. So, like, you know, second album, Large Professors go on, Mikey D's inserted, and things just weren't working out the way everyone anticipated when the group, you know, it was like almost Christmas time or something like that, I think, and like things just weren't going well. Uh they came up to the office with the mother of the DJs who was the manager. The mother, she's the manager, she was managing them.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god. What's her name? Miss I think it's called the Miss Wilder.
SPEAKER_01I forget. Yeah, her and then her, I think it was her brother, uh, who was the uncle. Oh boy. Uh they came up and they came up, you know, with some stuff. And the uncle. They came up with some things that uh they rolled up, you know what I'm saying? And and uh it was it was chaos in the office, and um poor Mike Geronimo and Herva just sitting there on the on the cover. Yeah, it's like hmm, maybe we don't want to sign here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you know, you were talking about the funny thing about that time was you were talking about the the the moog the moog era. So that was the moog. One of the first things I played, one of the first things I did in the studio was I played the I played that the the the moog for for Cash Money Click's first single. So it's uh like you know, it was yeah they weren't because that was what Irv right away was like like what he went up would go on to do at Def Jam. He had all that in his head about going national and remaining in New York and everything. So that was just part of what they were doing. But like, you know, the second Mike Geronimo single uh he had we had uh it was it was Mike rhyming and then Ja rhyming and then DMX rhyming and then Jay rhyming. And it was just kept the money? No, it was uh time to build 86. It's time to build. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh so yeah.
SPEAKER_02I remember seeing him being like, yo, I like the DMX kid. Like but I already knew about him because he had his demo was everywhere. He was he had he's he was doing the case solo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was DMX the great.
SPEAKER_03Right, yeah, right. Yeah, and uh and uh uh uh in that era, like you know, we with Mike Geronimo's record, you know, it was the innocent moment in New York where there was there was a time. Mike and and and Mike and and Irv and I stood on a corner, and each one of us putting putting a quarter in the the the phone box calling up hot 97, and we got it on we got it on the hot four four hot four whatever whatever it was, you got it on the radio just doing that, just doing that. Shit is real? Yeah, just pumping the just pumping. Who would have produced that? Earth.
SPEAKER_01That's I thought so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But those records, I mean, you know, for us, because at the DJ College Radio, I mean, I those records were huge, you know. It's like all that stuff. I mean, we s we kind of saw, I guess, and heard everything first coming from the indie stuff, you know, and then you see where it goes. I remember it was a similar situation uh to the Mike John Geronimo where like with Mad Skills, the one night Mad Skills went up to stretch and bar, and he destroyed it. He just destroyed it up there, and it was just like, yo, who is this kid?
SPEAKER_02I mean, that was like a time when like everyone could rap. Like everyone could. It really was. Like the level of rapping was like high. The bar was set high.
SPEAKER_03You didn't you didn't come out of you didn't say you could rap unless you could rap because it was it was that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Because the bar was like Naz and Biggie, so people, you know, people just the bar was set up. It was getting it.
SPEAKER_01And going back to what we were saying, like off the mic before we started was you know, for me, I I feel like even though there was great records that came out between like 91 and 93, I feel like it was also a lot of stuff that just people majors were just throwing stuff at the wall and like what's gonna stick, what's not.
SPEAKER_02Major labels didn't really understand it. Like they were like they were clueless, like they would just be like, oh, this guy looks cool, like let me see. Right. Yeah, like his shirt or some shit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's funny when you look back at that era, like when you look at the source from that era, you think like, oh, this was hot, that was hot, everything must have been hot. Right. But then when you look what they were actually putting out, you're like, who are these? What are these records?
SPEAKER_02There was all kinds of just growing up. I think it's always kind of like that, though. There's always like for for the cream of the crop, there's a lot of mid stuff that just is always out there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, it's so it was an interesting era too, because like you said, the major labels were really getting more invested, more into the game, and that changed a lot of things. You know, I I sort of was thinking about how there was this generational shift. You had all these very potent, strong, independent labels in the 80s, right? Yep. And then going into the 90s, I think because the source was such a uh potent platform and you stretch and bob and you know other shows, that the majors just were like, oh, we need to get into this game. A decade earlier they would have said hip-hop disgrace to the race, dah dah da. And then they were like, we're losing money, we're losing shares.
SPEAKER_02Well, it was also low investment like high game music, right? You could do the deals cheap, and a lot of it was like kind of self-promoting, self-propelled.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And but uh but I as a label, I also saw that the majors were willing to throw more money. Like if somebody became a hot producer.
SPEAKER_02But we also didn't take your publishing.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Well, that's true. But you know, if a if a producer got really hot, the majors were there pulling up a Brinks truck.
SPEAKER_02I mean, you know, I'm the first person who went from uh indie to be uh um work at a major label, first hip hop AR guy. So I and I I left Tommy Boy to go work at Electra, and there was a lot of hurdles, but like one of the things was I could always spend more money. Right. I could the deal was gonna be a better deal. I wasn't gonna take your publishing. But there were there was a a couple of times when people like so I really tried to sign Tribe Call Quest. I wanted to sign Tommy Boy, and we weren't gonna get the deal, it wasn't gonna happen. And um I went to work at Electra with the goal of signing Tribe Call Quest and DOC. I didn't get either of them. But Tribe, I had offered them $375,000. I think it was $75,000 more than Jive, but we had zero track record. Jive, they did the deal with Jive for $325, Jive got their publishing, and they got tips publishing for like forever, basically. So everything he did outside of Tribe, they got publishing on. And they always they you know, Chris Lighty, who did that deal with us, we're like, damn, I just didn't know what I was, I didn't know. And it was the balancing act, though. Do you take the money and keep your publishing at a place that probably can't break your record, or do you go to a place like Jive or a Tommy Boy or you know, Select or whoever it is profile who can break your record, right? And that was that was the conundrum that managers had at that point. And I think, you know, major labels didn't get it right for a long time. Uh Lecture Records, I had put a slew of records. I got I didn't get a gold record to old Dirty Bastard.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know what happened, I think, and you would be the perfect person to address this, is that in the major label system, you still had this OG black music department. And and these guys were they were bougie. They were like, they were very bougie. They were waiting for the next Patty Label, they were waiting for the next Peebo Bryson. Well, Ruben Rodriguez, may rest in peace, had actually had a department store display motto of Paco Rabon in his office. So, I mean, but these were the guys that were going to the impact conventions, going to Jack the Rapper, and they were working, you know, placebo Bryson and you know, whoever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which I know he's a great singer, but it was He was my head of promotion at one point, uh Ruben, and and he um he couldn't say Dell the Funky Homo sapiens without laughing. He was like Dell the Funky Homo. And I'd be like, this guy's taking my record to radio. I'm gonna it was perpetual, like it was always always the battle. And um and there were also groups like Brand Newby who terrified those guys. Who were like everything they didn't want.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's what that that was what I was gonna say about the Electra Records is like, you know, that was for me when I was when I was in college and interning and like I had all those albums, and they had like they had like the vibe of indie records, but the budget like they you could do things that indie records couldn't do, but the records you know, they they would have sold more on the indie label.
SPEAKER_02Tommy Boy, a brand newbie and probably a gold record. Yeah. You know, or Pete Rock and Seal Smooth.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, you could tell when you're going through the Source magazine, because we were, I think, the first advertiser in the Source, if not the first.
SPEAKER_02When it was a newbie.
SPEAKER_00When it was like, yeah, just stapled together. It wasn't a magazine. Yeah, exactly. Dave Mays would come to my office every year. We'd work out a deal for the full year of advertising. And at a certain point, I guess it was in the mid 90s or so, he broke the news to me that we were no longer gonna own the back cover. Because that was big real estate for us, owning the back cover of the source. But in the early 90s, as the majors were sort of really getting more invested in it, and they took ads. Let's get some Afrocentric type face font. Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_01And we'll, you know, like it was that's what that's the thing. It's like again, going back to just being a fan of the labels, the music, you could you could see, you could tell who was authentic and who's like, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02It's like I can't. I mean, my first art director who I worked with at Electron Records despised me. She she didn't want to look at me, and she just was like, she was not feeling us. And and she got when she got let go, I got a a much better art director after Ally Trooch, but the first woman who worked there despised me. And everything I brought to her, she was like, you know, like she looked at me like roller eyes. And I knew when I left office, she was like fucking that little punk motherfucker. Like it was unbelievable. Like, you know, I think I mean the uphill battle working in the major label and uh the shit she went up against because you had a lot of departments. Whoa, a lot of departments, and and um like you said, like the yeah, you know, the guys who liked Peeble Bryson and Luther Vandros and and all that, they weren't they did not want to know about Brand Nubians or any of that. That shit was so beneath them. And you know, for me, like I was like, I'm go to work with my size 40 jeans and a skateboard and like you know, they will and a gold chain, they were like, we hate this fucking kid. Like he's everything we don't want.
SPEAKER_00You also had a very, very different distribution model. Yeah, because you know, we as you know, Tommy Boy and uh and all the other New York Indies, we were scrappy and we had distribution through like I was just talking about Howie Rumack yesterday, because Howie Rumack owned uh Sunshine Distributors over on 10th Avenue. Boy, I sat in his office so many times waiting for a post data check. It was hilarious.
SPEAKER_02Well, when you guys went to Warner Brothers, did you still use independent distributions?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's what I was gonna say. It we as a hybrid model, because when we did the deal with Warner Brothers, which was in 86, and as a result of the the soundtrack Crush Groove and Four Some D's having a huge hit with Tender Love, um we put some stuff through the Wii A system and other stuff went through our independent distribution.
SPEAKER_02Who made that call? Did you guys or they made that call?
SPEAKER_00It was mutual, actually. It was mutual and it worked out pretty well because if the foursome D's were gonna have a big crossover, when I say crossover, you it was gonna be black radio, maybe pop if it was, you know, on the tender love uh, you know, that level or if it was information society, you know, which is more of a pop act. Right, exactly. But it worked out very smoothly. But whenever something went through Wii or went through Warner Brothers, I was like typing up all these reports and you know, you'd have to work the building. Yeah, yeah. I go out to Burbank and work the building or go to the Wii convention. And this was just a whole different thing. I mean, I really kind of loved the characters and independent distribution. Henry Stone down in Miami. He was another guy.
SPEAKER_02High Weiss.
SPEAKER_00High Weiss. Well, High Weiss was crazy.
SPEAKER_02He wasn't our distributor.
SPEAKER_00But him and uh yeah, he he'd talk your ear off about the old days, which was incredible. Right. But you know, you'd have to collect money from these guys. Yeah. Yeah. But I had to collect money from these guys and hear all the stories from back in the day, and they were hilarious characters. It wasn't like that if you're dealing with, say, trans world or you know, no, of course. Of course.
SPEAKER_04Right. Yeah. Anyway, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I uh and uh to that point. I remember, you know, at Profile we had, I don't know, 18 people or something.
SPEAKER_02And at the end of the year, Corey's dad ran a distribution company, right? And why did I think that?
SPEAKER_00Melbourne? No, Landmark. Landmark was Steve's former partner, Steve Platnicky. We got into a big lawsuit with. Yes, it was.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that's what it I actually came in right at I came to profile right after that whole thing or right in the middle of that whole thing. So it was a wild time. Anyway, so uh, but but and I would remember going to the majors or going to Universal or somewhere and just walking down these long hallways and just seeing like people everywhere and just being like, you know, this is what it takes for you guys to get out of here.
SPEAKER_02I would just always make sure I hit the record boom and took everything. Yeah, I'd leave it like an in like depending on how broke I was, I would just go sell them at St. More Excellent.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, that's the way that's Dante's first uh Dante's office at Tommy Boy was the mail room.
SPEAKER_02It was a mail room with mailbags in it, lots of mail. I think that was AR. It started out, yeah. It was an interesting room.
SPEAKER_01So who's first uh artist signed by you at Tommy Boy? Latifa. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, Queen Latifa. And Mo hired me. So Mo gave me the job, changed my life. Yeah. Uh Tom, Tom financially was prudent to say the least, which is why I moonwalked over to a lecture, but I wanted to stay there because you know, I got to work with Dela. Mo threw me the rock on Dela. Um she played me the demo when I went for the job interview.
SPEAKER_01And um What do you think it is? Oh, yes. Whatever he says, he's either he gets a job or he doesn't.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I was like, this is great. Uh, you know, I just was like, it reminded me of ultra magnetic, and it was I always remember that that I was like, oh, it's like ultra magnetic, meet slick Rick because it was so creative. And then uh we had a second interview and she hired me. Wow. And um, and I it was I think I really got hired because I lived in close proximity to the office, though. So I lived on yeah, I can like, well, I was never on time. Looks like a crazy. Um, I was I was somehow on time today.
SPEAKER_00I saw Dante. This is a weird story. I think we've we've talked about this. It was so weird because I was living like on East 92nd Street. In fact, I was living in the same building in Stretch Armstrong when Stretch was just a wee lad, his he was living with his parents. His parents very big.
SPEAKER_02His name was Adrian B then.
SPEAKER_00Adrian, right, and that's how I knew him, Adrian. And you know, you see him take out his little crates on the weekend. This is well before he became, you know, Stretch. But um anyway, I remember th this odd thing. I was looking out my window and I saw you walking past. Like on, I want to say on East 92nd Street. It must have been.
SPEAKER_02And I said, I was like, Was I going to see Stretch or was I going to play basketball?
SPEAKER_00Uh you were coming to our building. I don't know what you what you were doing, but I s somehow I just said, Oh, yeah, I should talk to Dante. I don't know why exactly we Oh, I know why, because Daddy O. Was it Daddy One? Yeah, Daddy O threw my hat around. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And Daddy O was he was a friend of mine. I was languishing at so Leor planted me in in Kara Lewis's office. So I was basically Leor's spy for Kara Lewis. And I had a job where I had to literally call up arenas and put holds on dates, which is so crazy. Because if you know me, I you know, I'm so unorganized. Um and I hated working with Kara Lewis. She was um she's Bobby Fleckman, but you know, she's a legend and obviously incredible at what she does, but you don't want to work for her. So she was tough. Right.
SPEAKER_00But she worked for Norby Walters, too. So that's the first time.
SPEAKER_02Norby Walters was if you don't know, he was convicted, then he got caught on a Rico charge, whatever. The whole business of agent team back then was a was a thing. Right. Um and uh Daddy O came up there one time, he's like, yo, they're trying to hire someone at Tommy Boy. I think he said that they offered him the gig or some shit, and he's like, I'm gonna throw your hat in the ring, and I was like, please do, and that's how it happened. Right. So I'll give it to Daddy O. And and he was me and Daddy, I think Daddy O was trying to get me to be a five percenter or something. And he would always give me like books and uh the power of positive magnetism by Ragwan Bajniche and all these bugged-out self-help like books. Me and it would like talk about philosophy and all this weird ass shit. And um, I don't know, man. He was like, she interviewed me and I I give it to Daddy O. That's why I always call him my big bro. He's like he helped.
SPEAKER_00Well, well, Daddy O actually played a very pivotal role in De La Salle because um Well Paul Paul said. Yeah, yeah. No, it is true, but there's two, there's du things were happening on you know different places at the same time. Because Daddy O met with me, wanted to meet with me and pay play me like three acts. And one was sort of like this, I don't know, maybe sort of new jackish type of thing, but more major labeled type of thing. And he played it's other track, it was straight up soul R and B. That wasn't for us. But the one in the middle was De LaSol. And I wrote up a little report.
SPEAKER_02Was it Platooning?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it was, uh, but it was also freedom of speech. And um yeah, I still have the tape. Um the uh and I wrote up this little report on all three of them, and I said, Yeah, I think De La Soul really is like really super cool and interesting and saying now at the same time, Paul was Rod Houston had conver a conversation with Paul in a recording studio, and Paul was like, Yeah, De LaSole. Now, I didn't even realize it at the time that you know they had our they had also shopped to profile, but no and Gaffin. Oh, yeah, um, they offered them more money. More money. They I I don't know what exactly. I think so. Uh but they offered him more money. And Paul was reluctant to bring it to us. But Rod Houston said to Paul, no, you know, I think Mo would really like it, da da da. You should g give it a shot. So it was actually, you know, converted combined uh efforts, uh, you know, on on you know, but I hat hats off to Daddy oh. I think he doesn't get much acknowledgement for his role in connecting the dots. In connecting the dots.
SPEAKER_02He was really good like that. It's funny when when you say that Dela almost signed the Geffen because Geffen signed Tribe to a demo deal and then didn't push the button. That's how they ended up being a free agent. So Fenster could add Dela and Tribe Tribe.
SPEAKER_00Now, Fenster, I knew Fenster because he was he was yeah, he worked in the legal department at Warner Brothers. And he always wanted to get into the AR game, and he had that group 783. You know, and I don't know what happened next to the what point he went to Jive, but well 78 by he was a jive by the time I was leaving as an intern, I think.
SPEAKER_03So he was actually reunited with Tribe over there for the fourth album. I think sooner than that. Maybe the third, maybe the third.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, yeah. All right, Monica, going back 81-ish, 82, 83, whatever. Because I mean, the music that you guys were putting out, like what was the what was the process? What were you doing to get in touch with you know a lot of the the Bronx?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, how did you find band?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I have to say very clearly that Tom really was responsible for the early electro era of Tommy Boy, with alongside, of course, Arthur Baker and John Roby. So uh, you know, when I first started in December of 81, the the record that was percolating and really was Tommy Boy's first hit was Jazzy Sensation. Right. And it was sort of a mid-Atlantic hit, you know, it was a mid-hit.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00Um but it was making noise and it was doing well. And is a classic, of course. Um Gwen McRae flip. Pardon?
SPEAKER_02The Glenn McRay flip.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, right, exactly. And Tina B was on the record and all that. Anyway. Um then so I would credit Tom, along with Arthur and John, for those electro, that brief and shining electro era. And it was short.
SPEAKER_04It's great. You know, it really was only like three years.
SPEAKER_02One way was short, had another way.
SPEAKER_03Right, because it's still right now everybody uses that. Like Tyler the Creator is l is of course.
SPEAKER_00But I can tell you right now, the day it ended was when the first run DMC came. He came out exactly it.
SPEAKER_02Changing of the guard. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was incredibly a changing of the guard.
SPEAKER_02I remember it clearly because it was like, you know, all the electro stuff was like semi-influenced by New Wave, and it was all about breakdancing, and it was like a whole, you know, dudes who dress like broke Rick James and Well, you know, I mean a lot.
SPEAKER_00Bambata, of course, has been in the news quite a bit lately with his passing and everything. Yes. Uh you know, but that whole era was the thing about that electro sound was that it traveled so well.
SPEAKER_02I mean so big in LA. It was huge in LA.
SPEAKER_00It was very uh fundamental in the free style. Yeah. Well, Egyptian lover, you know, the whole K-Day sounds like that. Lisa Lisa and Lisa and all that. But it was you know what it was? It sounded great, blasting out of cars. So it traveled well to Florida, it traveled well to Texas, it traveled well. The 808 drum is here across all these different uh groups, too. It wasn't just like a black thing. It was like Latins, white kids, you know. And this is all before really n any national video, uh, you know, yo MTV raps. Of course, Ralph McDaniels was uh doing his thing here, but you know, that just exploded. And it was huge in Europe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Planet Rock. I mean, think about that. That's I mean, you know, bands like New Order go make confusion because of Planet Rock. Right. So it has it had tentacles that went everywhere, way beyond just hip-hop. Yeah, yeah. And plus the Afrofuturism of it, like so amazing.
SPEAKER_00I'm so glad you brought that up because you know, one thing about BAM, there was a story in the the Times just about a week or two ago now about Bam's style influence in the early 80s, and it was so crazy to go. I've saved a lot of Bambada memorabilia because he used to sit in my office and write down all of his special thanks because for one 12-inch single, he'd write down four pages of the five. So I've got pages and pages and pages, and then he would dictate to me the manifesto of how Soulsonic Force was born, and then he'd write lists of his favorite hip-hop breaks and his, you know, the most important funk records, and it would go on and on and on. It'd always start out with, you know, praise to the creator Allah and my mom's and Aunt Shirley, and then they'd go into George Clinton and James Brown and every single person in the Zulu Nation, you know, uh Lisa Lee, it went on and on and on. And it would be special thanks, special funky thanks, extra special funky things.
SPEAKER_02Remember, Time Zone has the biggest thank yous I'd ever seen on it. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Well, I've got pages and pages of stuff, but the thing was is that Bam was such a character in so many ways. Um, but he was so plugged in. He loved that downtown rock stuff. He was a member of Rockpool, and he was really into the European, you know, imports and the stuff coming out of uh Europe. And he had this wild style where he would sort of like took like elements of when he was uh in the black space and sort of mashed it up with like you know, this punk rock St. Mark's place type of thing with the crazy haircuts, the crazy sunglasses, you know, black leather jacket with studs on it. It wasn't really punk.
SPEAKER_02It was kind of like sunra meets new waves, and but it was sunra.
SPEAKER_00You so but you know, with the uh uh outfits that they wore on stage, the costumes, it was sunra futurism, right? All you know, afrofuturism.
SPEAKER_02I mean it's crazy that that whole style, like they all look like you know, peafunk-ish, like kind of Rick James style. But I just remember Run DMC was the first group that dressed like the audience. We like saw ourselves on there, and right. You know, as like a white kid taking a train to the city, I couldn't dress like Soul Sonic Force, so I was gonna get beat up. But like I could dress like Runde MC. I had Zulu beads, so I had Zulu beads, Jazzy J and Bam gave me them at a Zulu block party. I was with the Beasties and running them. That made you official, having those things got me out of a few, a few tense moments in my life on the subway train. But yeah, that whole style, the purple leather suits and all that. Oh my god. It was kind of crazy.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, no, and it was even with when you look at the Sulsonic Force outfits, they were not even it was rather disjointed.
SPEAKER_02They dressed like the Israelites.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, because you had Biggs are like in like Viking, and then Globe would be in like like he was at some 1700 French, you know, uh court, and then Pow Wow was in you know Indian guard, you know, like an American Indian Native American look. Native American, you know, so yeah, it was funny stuff. But you're right, but that was a changing of the guard. There was a changing the the electoral era was officially over when Runde MC dropped.
SPEAKER_02Because you know, Runde MC came out and also they they um they were like I always called the anti-music, right? Because it was just like a drum machine, like a drum beat and a stab. That was like the whole record. Yeah, and they kind of the way they rap was confrontational, yeah, it was like very aggressive. So I think like Runde MC hit a nerve with all the like kids who like punk rock. But didn't Russell really I my understanding is that the their initial impulse was not to dress straight and that Russell really was Russell saw Jay when he came home from Spoffer and he had no shoelaces and his tongues out, and they were like, We're all you all gotta dress like Jay. That's the legend. Uh-huh. You know, who knows? But that's what I always heard. Because if we look at their old old jacket, the checkered suit jacket, leather pants, like they were like almost like walking the kind of borderline Rick James look, you know, like a disco kind of look.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was it would be more like AJ Lester uh type of uh exactly no one no one even knows what AJ Lester is except you.
SPEAKER_02No, you know, a lot of people know. So on 120 Fisher, we should go to AJ Lester and like look in the window and be like, I'm gonna do that.
SPEAKER_03I would say, yeah, that that Sucker MCs for me was like for for like two years until everybody started sampling, right? For like for like a year and a half, two years, it just felt like that dictated as far as every record was just drum machine and a little bit of ah yeah, and that was just you know, like Anton music. And then LL was like LL just took that. It was like 2.0. Yeah, 2.0 and it was just it was just moved so fast. If you look at it, so like that's last year, you know.
SPEAKER_02It's like now we're you know, it's yeah, I mean Runde MC2 was like the first thing that goes to middle America, right? It's like because they're the first rap group that gets on MTV.
SPEAKER_00Well, Aerosmith, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, Rock Box, really.
SPEAKER_00Oh, rock box, well, yeah, and then they really broke them. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, Rock Box was on MTV, and uh, and what I thought was so cool is that they dissed the Beatles, there's three of us before the Beatles, and they knocked over the John Lennon statue. And I was just like, these guys are the greatest. I was like showed King of Rock. King of King of Rock.
SPEAKER_03So it's it's like it was the it was the three in a row.
SPEAKER_00It was rock box and then King of Rock and then Walk This Way was the and and also coupled with all of that is there was you know with Rush and uh Curtis Blow and Ricky Walters Ricky Walters, well, Ricky Walker and and um uh Charlie Stettler um Daryl Brooks.
SPEAKER_02Daryl Brooks and his wife. I was a road manager, I know all these promoters.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but so all of a sudden you had the Fresh Fest and you had the uh you know Nitro uh tour Local Digital. It was the rap tours going all over the country.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dope jam. There you go. That was the next one. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But that was that was a new thing. You know, it used to be like, you know, there wasn't really dedicated rap tours.
SPEAKER_01Not at all.
SPEAKER_02I mean, when we talk about the era too, people you know, they always no one ever mentions Houdini enough because other than one DMC Houdini was the m the biggest rap group in the world.
SPEAKER_00And they had black radio. That's right, because they made sex music, they made melodics, they made joints for the girls. They did.
SPEAKER_02They're like the blueprint for Uptown Records. That's right.
SPEAKER_00So glad you brought up Houdini because they don't get enough credit, I don't think. They they were like they were flying quiet as it's kept. They were selling fucking records, man. Yeah, man. They had platinum records. Yeah, they had big records because they were the the only ones that were really crossing over into radio. Right, you know, all this other stuff. Run DMC was too hard for black radio for daytime.
SPEAKER_04Right, right. Daytime, right? Yeah, sure, sure.
SPEAKER_00We were getting departed all the time, or you know, they were like peanut butter and jelly, Run DMC and Houdini.
SPEAKER_02They were like, you needed one for the other at that point to live in big rooms. Right, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And Houdini had Houdini had the chicks.
SPEAKER_02They had the chicks, yeah. I remember like seeing those shows, and all the girls would go crazy when they know they dressed kind of RB, they had like leather shirt shorts on the city. Yeah, sexy presentation. It was it was a thing. And they never people always forget them. Like they never get the the the green eyes. Uh uh D, the DJ. Yeah, grand Drew, Grandmaster D. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00He was sexy with the green eyes. Oh, the girls love him.
SPEAKER_02And that's so funny because we'd be on I was on tour with those guys, and and people were like, girls always knew Drew and be like, oh, you know Drew? Like every girl would be like, oh yeah, I'm sure you do.
SPEAKER_00And then you had, you know, I I don't know exactly what year I should know this, but it was in like the mid-80s when um uh rap uh word up and rap master started publishing too, which was also chick stuff, you know. Right, right. I mean, guys, I'm sure we're buying it because there wasn't, you know, this is pre-source and all that stuff. But this was national distribution.
SPEAKER_02It was Teen Beat for Young Black.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it was title beat. LL and new edition on like exact Wrench. Yeah, it's a thing.
SPEAKER_02It's funny too, because that time right before Run DMC breaks, to me, like rap music almost dies. Like it gets, it's in a lull. It's like it's getting very RB, it's like problems of the world today. I love that record, but records like that, very keyboard-driven, cheesy kind of sounding keyboards. And and people don't say this, but the white people who loved electro, they they bit the dust. They were out. It wasn't hip man, it wasn't the cool thing anymore, right? So Run DMC comes back and reinvigorates. And I saw Run DMC's first show in Manhattan. It was at Danceria, not the Roxy, and it was a who's who of of Like Madonna was there. Yeah. John Michelle Bosco was there. Like Keith Harring was there. Mark Raymond's in the booth. Right. It's one of those things that we went to and I was like Howie. Right, exactly. Howie Montaught. Rest in peace. He was a doorman at Dancer Tierra. He's the guy who like led us all in everywhere.
SPEAKER_00He led Dante in everywhere.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he was great. So so but I remember being at that show and like being aware enough to be like, this is a real thing. Like, look who's here. This is like some this is some shit.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, uh there was that night that uh Rick, I guess it was Rick and Russell, had that you know, a dedicated night at Dance Interior called the spot. Yep.
SPEAKER_02It only lasted a couple of weeks.
SPEAKER_00It only yeah, I still have one of the invitations, but you know uh you know, that was one of the things I would say about that transition into Runde MC and Beastie Boys and LL, is that Russell was always and Rick, of course, you know, but they all always had one big foot firmly planted in sort of that downtown.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's why Russian that's why Russian Death Jam was on Elizabeth Street, not Midtown. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, they were they I somehow Russell, I don't know if his constant all the time.
SPEAKER_00He'd give me a screwdriver and a pack of new ports. I'm not I don't do a good Russell, but that's basically what he was saying at the bar.
SPEAKER_02That's what that's what we call Cocaine Russell. That was that was that era. And and yeah, you know, it's true that I don't know if it was Russell or Rick who was innately smart enough to know that if you conquered downtown, that would spread across the whole country. And this is how they got all the white kids involved, right? And this is this is to me when white kids became entrenched in hip-hop. It became the thing that all antisocial white kids wanted to listen to.
SPEAKER_00And he also had like sort of the the first wave of you know, like the the intelligentsia, journalism, Greg Tay, and people at the Village Voice. I mean, Bill Adler worked warm. Bill Adler was great at seeding this and pus and putting it in context. You know, obviously public enemy was like enormously probably the most important group for the year.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, white journals have a long history of loving things that's antisocial and anti-them. That's right. So anything that's like a gigantic.
SPEAKER_00Anything soft, they weren't interested in it. Like if giggles came out with love letters. Right. Yeah, get that out of your way. Although Carol Cooper did write about it to her vast credit.
SPEAKER_02But the Carol Cooper term, did she come up with the term freestyle? Not to much and when did it stop being called Latin Letters? Because it was called Latin hip hop, and there was freestyle.
SPEAKER_00You know, there's obviously the that conversation has raged on for decades now with hip-hop, but I don't know who termed the the uh you know Latin freestyle. You know, I don't know exactly. I mean, I would certainly say I gotta put my man Joey Gardner R.A.P. in the mix with you know helping develop that whole scene, but I don't know who taught who who I think Latin with the planet rock beat would have been too long.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That was an interesting era, Lendez. It was an interesting era, yeah. That's when everything kind of collided in a beautiful way. You know, and Runde MC kind of is when it when the tipping point happens.
SPEAKER_00You know, the I remember one uh there's a lot of things.
SPEAKER_02I mean, you're responsible for the next tipping point, though.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you. But I just want to mention the a funny Russell Simmons moment. Two things. Being at the Roxy and having Russell come up to me and tell me that that planet rock, he goes, That planet rocker is just too nervous. It's too nervous. That's not gonna yeah, he was like really like so. In the meantime, you know, Run DMC comes out and that's that's that. Uh and I also remember a moment out in front of the Roxy. So this must have been when was the first LL record? Uh 84. 84. It was 83, 84. And he was out in front of the Roxy, and LL was there, and Russell was admonishing him, you know, about how he needs to tie his sneakers. No, you do it like this. You know, he's like, it was like, and I was like, wow, this is crazy because I'd never seen a label person, you know, trying to tell their art. Well, I mean, you can go back to Motown, but you know, I'd never seen it.
SPEAKER_02I always thought it was so cool that Run, you know, Run DMC was the Adidas thing, right? And LL purposely wore Air Jordan 1s on the album cover. Right. And it was like that was like another thing. Like it was like, oh, it's gonna change again. Right. And Shelto's aren't it anymore. Right. It was like, you know, there's all these like stylistic cues that you see, everything's gonna change. Because Run DMC came out with the Run DMC sneakers, and no one was fucking with them. Because at the same time, Nike Dunks came out, and that's what everyone was fucking with. So you could see things changing. Right. You know, it moved so fast.
SPEAKER_04It did.
SPEAKER_01So then after the Electro's dated, what were the things that you were bringing in to the label?
SPEAKER_00Well, I would say uh the mid-80s was a little bit of a mix, and we weren't, you know, the the hits weren't fast and furious like they were during the moments, certainly. Uh you know, Gordy's group Stets of Sonic, you know, um Four Sem D's. Four SMDs Tender Love was huge for Jimmy and Terry's first top ten pop record, as a matter of fact. Um but I would say the big turning point really came in 1988 with uh Latifa and De LaSol. You know, they're not gonna be.
SPEAKER_02It's a combo of P.E. and De La. They kind of put them out of business.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And you know, when you talk about white kids, you know, uh De La Sol Oh the Yeah, they're the next iteration of the white hip hop stuff. The white, you know, the college kids.
SPEAKER_00The college kids.
SPEAKER_02The kid who listened to R.E.M.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, we had like uh it was explosive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was uh they touched a nerve because it was like non-threatening and non-threatening and it was also we can buy in on the yeah, and it was also saying like all that tough guy shit later.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, it as laid out very clearly in the me myself and I video. You know, because it was like, no, we're not wearing the raccoon hats and the black leather and the dookie chains and all that stuff. It was so visually. Oh, and I just reconnected with uh Pax Patrick Moxie.
SPEAKER_03I think that's I think that's one of the craziest that that that me myself and I video because what is that's 88 or 88, right? So if that's 88, then like hip-hop is just just established, and already there's this thing like that's the old, we're not you know, it's like already there's like it's already so. I mean, we were looking at generational.
SPEAKER_02We were looking at the Run DMC guys and you know, with their chains and you all that, and we were like, that shit is corny, like dead ass. That wasn't that wasn't how we dressed anymore. Right. Right? We were wearing stripey shirts and had flat tops and you know, go we had like medallions. We wasn't rocking all that, it was a different vibe. Just everything changed.
SPEAKER_03And you said pat you said Patrick Moxie. I was thinking like that was like I was thinking like that was uh almost the beginning for me, and that's when I when I started, it was like the building and payday and all those clubs. But uh, but I mean just just the just the like like the the Hillfinger shirts and just all like all those all those just just those changes um just happened so fast. I mean from my perspective.
SPEAKER_00But that was a that was a huge turning point for I think what was the next generation musically, but it also was a big shift for Tommy Boy, because we sort of entered what I would call our golden age.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's when you became the coolest label in the world. Like Tommy Boy and Def Jam were like neck and neck, and uh and Def Dem was like one certain aesthetic, Tommy Boy was another. She was more modern.
SPEAKER_00I mean, our our you know, from the late 80s into say the early to mid-90s, you had De La Sol and Queen Latifah, you had Digital Underground, you had uh naughty by nature, naughty by nature, house of pain, uh Coolio towards the end. I'm I can't leave out RuPaul. Um we got some flack for that from some some folks in the hip-hop community. Uh but yeah, it was a very fertile period. Yeah, that was a good time.
SPEAKER_02Can't forget Uptown. Uptown added that one. I thought the art direction on all the Tommy Boy stuff, I used to always be very envious. I just always thought it was so good. Yeah, it was important. Like the I think I think about the big blunts-like cover. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Shout out to Albi. I mean, Albi had a fantastic taste and good, you know, uh was very instrumental with the Tommy Boy gear that we produced. The stoic great AR guy.
SPEAKER_03Like all the shirts you wanted like the naughty by Navy, like all those things, like when they came out, they're all like the logos look so good. Carhart jacket. Stickers, stickers, stickers. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Sticker with sticker game type.
SPEAKER_02And also Monica Monica was so good at um the sound bite, the one-liner that described the band. Like you were like the you were like the best. I learned that all from you.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_02Like, you know, so I just watch you, I'd be like, Jesus Christ, like you could you could break it all down to one sentence. And I remember um Three Feet High and Rising, I was inspired by you to say the brothers from another planet, the others from a brother planet. That's right. But I got that because I've been around you. You're like, you know, your DNA, I just had like absorbed it because you were so good. I never saw anyone do that like the way you did it, where you could just break it down that one thing that was memorable, that totally described the group. I mean you had you had an uh you had another career in in advertising if you wanted to.
SPEAKER_00I loved it. It was you know, it was very uh it was a great time. You could be creative, you could take chances and we weren't beholden to uh you know, major label, you know, I have to run it up the flagpole with this person, that person. We could just go fast. And that back cover, the source, was like prime. That was beach state real estate, you know, beach beachfront real estate. It was fantastic. We could put Fat Man Scoop in an ad, you know, things like that. It would be hilarious. Um But yeah, it was a great period. It was I I really enjoyed that, and thank you.
SPEAKER_01Let's let's bring it up a little bit, uh, profile era when you were there.
SPEAKER_00Corey, by the way, good friend of mine.
SPEAKER_03But Corey's Corey was gone when I got there. So Corey had just that of their partnership had just dissolved, and I missed that whole thing because that was my TVT era. Uh so I got you really went for that. I got I got I hit all the stuff from the tour. Yeah. So uh uh uh all the way to Kotch. Yeah, but uh uh but then I uh when I got there uh late 94 and then uh early early 95, uh I wasn't signing anything. And you know, being in being in AR, of course, it was like they were looking for some looking for some stuff immediately to get to to be to get hot and the label wasn't didn't have anything. And I was like, you know, it was like if this fell through and that fell through, and uh, you know, I tried it like like I was still uh connected with Irv, and Irv uh Irv hadn't uh wasn't at Def Jam yet, so I I tried to, you know, I tried to get Jay, and of course Jay wasn't gonna go without publishing. Uh and uh so uh and then uh lucky enough to hear another self-pressed record, uh Smooth the Hustler Hustlin', with which is just um uh I don't I think it was another group on the other side of the record. It wasn't broken language because broken language we recorded. Uh but uh and I just from the moment, you know, such a huge MLP fan, such such a huge uh uh DR Powers. Yeah. And so DR, as soon as you hear that DR sound, and smooth was just so cool. And it's just like so um, you know, I I uh I was like immediately on that, and then when when we when we started recording, and then broken language was just another that was one of those one of those records, no chorus, so on the case.
SPEAKER_02It was it was that was the I mean I signed Trigger the Gambler because of that, and he you know it never came out.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, but the Smith brothers, yeah. Those this kid was just they were they were so good and they were so locked into what they were doing. And yeah, I mean it was like it was one of those things like you know, who knows how anything would have gone any other way, you know. Uh because uh but the but the but that uh that that broken language was one of those great classic, yes. Yeah, we just like like I remember Angie Angie Martinez came down and did the video, and I was like, you know, we little this little record all of a sudden, the little record that could. Um and it was like it was like a really you know that so that was a that was a great where were they from? Uh uh from Brownsville. Brownsville. So going out to the studio was crazy.
SPEAKER_02Saratoga, I would go out to Saratoga Wilson Avenue. Yeah, you walk down the street and just be like, How are you doing, officer? Yeah. It was it was like it was the wow.
SPEAKER_03It was old, it was old Brooklyn, it was old Brooklyn for real. And it was definitely yeah, yeah. Yeah, like a house in the house, right? Yeah, yeah. So and and DR had the studio and they they had they had it was like at that point that the at that point the the the woo model had taken off, and so everybody was like basically having their own, they wanted their own label, and then they just wanted everybody to do distribution.
SPEAKER_02And Rockefeller was DR had done all the MLP stuff.
SPEAKER_03Right. We'd done the whole first album, and so uh, and then he came, he did the whole first album, and then they didn't work together for a while, and then he came back and did any fell out. Yeah, they fell out. They fell out. They came back, and then I think the next song that he did for them was Any Up, but it was Any Up, and it was just talking like there's certain records that's like Annie Up, Eight New York, uh House of Pain jump around eight New York. Like certain records you should paint everything. We just heard it omnipresently.
SPEAKER_00There was I just saw a clip. Uh there's these uh Italian guys, like old hard school Italian guys from Brooklyn, and they they said, Well, what rook you know, talking about the best DJs in New York, and they say, Well, what record? Yeah, what record you had to like, you know, clear out the the whole floor would just go crazy, and it was always anti-up. Yeah, anti-up, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I always called records like that. That's a chain snatcher. Come clean by J-Rue, right? Brooklyn Zoo by ODB. Like there's records where dudes might just get beat up for the room. Right, right, right, right. Broken language. Broken language. Go stets up. I can go start like mini riots at the point of the yeah. That was like PSK by School ED. Those records are like someone's gonna get beat up. So like that.
SPEAKER_00You don't want to be back in the you want to be in the DJ booth.
SPEAKER_02You don't want to be You want to be next to Red, like yo, what's going on?
SPEAKER_00You don't want to be in Union Square.
SPEAKER_03I was like, you're like, yo, but they was anti- So that was a day, that was it was like for me, it was like the dream record, right? And of course, profile, you know, where they were looking for like, you know, bigger and bigger records. Right uh, and uh and and at that point, uh, was lucky enough to, you know, that then the next record I had for them uh was was Camp Lowe. I was lucky enough to be be a Jive, and I I can't remember the gentleman's name, I wish it did, uh, who played me this tape that said jive past on it and put it on. And uh um it was Sonny Chiba with the the he has the he had that um like a like a like maple syrup flow. Like it just sip maple syrup before he started, and it was so cool. And I was like, this is like this is crazy. Crazy sound. So it was like it was like I remember that I had it was uh I think it was around the time Liquid Swords came out. Uh I remember that I had like a a couple of tapes and the Camp Low demo was like a rap album, it was like the equivalent of a rap album. I listened to it like to like over and over and over again, trying to try and catch it. And luckily we got to we got to put it out uh a few years ago as a uh as a as a um limited release, the the demo. Um but uh but but uh I got to listen to it over and over again. And so and then it was just this whole thing where like ski, so ski started out, started making the when the demo was made I was through Luccini was supposed to be Jay's record. Well, so so Lucini was was uh it was Lowe's record, but there was definitely some it was it was a feeling it was feeling it was a record that started out as a low record and ended up as a J record. But it was, I mean that time, you know, so Dremier, I think, was working in the afternoons, I'm not sure, but I think he was working solidly in the B room. Yeah, uh and then he would leave, and at night it would be like Reasonable Doubt was was in one room and we were in another room, and then like there'd be a some third third group in another room and in the in the in the third room, and ski was going back and forth and like and like loading up the beats for Camp Low and then good loading up the beats for Jay-Z. So there were a lot of things about like we want that beat, like a lot of that kind of stuff. But but uh but but uh it was kind of like whoever paid ski first or however. That's how it was.
SPEAKER_00Or Mark would sell 45 King would sell beats to a few people, the same beat to a few people.
SPEAKER_02But Jay, I mean 45 King also half those beats were already on the the they were like Tough City releases, they don't come out. But I was like hard knock life was I was out, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right. I so I just felt like it was just like I was in that moment where I'd gone from working with DR, who really had his thing together, to Ski. And um Ski, they demoed the the almost the entire Camp Low album was down, all the lyrics were were written and demoed at Ski's house at his home studio before he went there. And I really wish that more people had done that.
SPEAKER_02I had a couple more people DOC's whole album was done. He gave me the whole album, him and him and Jerry Heller, she was there, yeah, and it was like it said ruthless on it, but it was the mastered album. And also Dirty, his whole album was more or less it was it was not mixed, but most of it was done when I got it. Like he had like five or six of those songs that are on the album, including Shimmy Shimmy and Brooklyn Zoo, are on the demo. Yeah, like he handed they handed me the demo, and I was like, Oh, this is like a record.
SPEAKER_03Right, but we so we would go into D D and we would actually we would actually re-record, which was great because then you didn't have a lot of things. But that's good and bad because you end up chasing your demo sometimes. Yeah, that definitely that definitely happened a few times when you couldn't when you couldn't clear a sample, that was always the same.
SPEAKER_02Well you just you can't, it just doesn't sound as good, right? Because it doesn't sound as bad. Right, exactly. Demo fever, right? Demo it is.
SPEAKER_00So if you get it, you know, with uh plug tune in that you know, really when it came out, I think it was the same exact same thing. It was like because it was all dirty and dusted, and it's like don't clean that up.
SPEAKER_02Because we just couldn't get it right, because we mixed it at um we mixed it at Tom had a studio, remember?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it was in the uh Yorkville Tower.
SPEAKER_02And we hate no, no, yeah, it was downtown. Like with the Sinclavier? Yeah, exactly. So we mixed it there and it it sounded we didn't like it. 45 King, everyone's like, this should sound whack. Yeah, and then we wanted to mix it again at Calliope. We had to go more low tech. And and I still I still think the demo sounded probably better than all of it. Because Mark had a certain sound in his you know in his spot. Yes, right.
SPEAKER_00So a certain magic. Yeah, it was like a magic in there.
SPEAKER_02It was a basement, it was like, you know.
SPEAKER_03So we kind of had the opposite things with Luccini. So Luccini was actually uh actually demoed in Ski's apartment, which was at 1520 Cedric Avenue, and I didn't have any idea that that was a deal at the time. I used to go up there and it was just a building, nobody was talking about it in the 90s as like a special thing. So I used to go up there and uh and uh and you know ski was like, I got it. And I went up there and I heard it and I was like, Yeah, you got it. Okay, so we we went to we went, we went and and did it and and mixed it at D D. But that was the opposite where we mixed it at DD, and it was like the mix, I was like, this song, and he said, And so we went and we remixed it again uh at quad with Kenny Ortiz, and and Kenny put like I think he put the whole thing through a compressor, so those horns just popped out of the speaker and uh actually put a chorus or a phaser on the vocals or something, so the vocals had this extra magical thing that was happening, and uh and then Lucini, so Camp Low had had had had uh Cooley High, and we were doing things like we were going around opening up for Jay-Z when Jay-Z had Ain't No, and we did other like we we opened up. There was one show in Philly, it was like Camp Low, and then Jay-Z came out and did Ain't No and brought Foxy out was crazy, and then Fuji's headline, you know, you would imagine that era. Uh and then um and then uh with Luccini, it was just like a whole different thing where I mean that's like a recurrent record, it never really goes away. I still it's I still hear it pop up, and I'm still like, oh, it's so great to you know, yeah. It's all right.
SPEAKER_02I mean that whole thing about like mixing records over and over. Like I've there's been a couple of records where I just mixed them like four or five times because I couldn't get it right. Like you just like it's not it's not like the demo, it's not quite there. It happened a bunch. Brooklyn Zoo, we mixed it four times. We got it right the fourth time because Riza, I found out later on, he told me this that yeah, because he didn't show up to mix anything on the record, he wasn't there at all because he'd had the flood. But he told me that after the fact. Oh, okay. So he had to remake Liquid Swords, right? And he had to remake fucking Cuban Lynx because he lost the whole records. And I remember he gave me the demos, he gave me the reels, and he said, Well, you know, walk these dogs. Yeah, so we we couldn't, and I didn't even know what he meant, but he just was MIA. Riza speak. Yeah, exactly, which I'm versed in now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um and you guys were early on that as well.
SPEAKER_00Uh yes, we were.
SPEAKER_02So I got a story about that too. So when I first met Riza to sign Dirty, I heard him on, I heard Dirty Freestyling on Stretching Bob. I jump in the cab, I go up to I go up there to meet him, right? And Riza's like, yo, I know you. And I didn't know him though. And I was like, You do? He's like, Yeah, I met you when I was on that whack shit. And I'm like, and I didn't, I didn't pick, I didn't get it together till later though. Right. And he's like, I know you from the guy Melquan. And I was like, oh, okay. And I still didn't know. I was just both Funky Melquan. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Funky Melquan. He was the Riz's manager, the Rakeem's manager, too. Exactly. So then it works security at a wholesale first place at the 65 West 30. He always said, Yo, come up. Come over. I'll do it over.
SPEAKER_02So, yeah, and then um I couldn't get the record right, and the record was done. I knew it was a hit song. I had to get it right. So after we struggled to think Third time we failed, my assistant at the time was like, yo, maybe we should just put like some drums in it. Because we couldn't get the drums to pop. And I was like, it's a good idea. And I went home and I I got my disc of the brethren and I brought it and I popped in the Brethren NPC and we put the kick and snare in it. Bong. And that was the record. That's how we mix and got it to sound right. You're talking about books and zoo? Yeah, because we couldn't get it to sound right. Because we couldn't get the drums right because we didn't know what Riz was doing. Right. Because his, if you, you man, if you ever looked at his there's so much crazy unorthodox shit going on. It's like idiot savant, right? That's why it's so great. Because he didn't give a fuck about any of the rules. Right. Right. But me, I'm like, you know, I got some rules. So very few, but some. Yeah. So so, you know, that's how we got it right. But that was the fourth time I was 0 for three on them motherfuckers. And then I find we finally got it right. And then Riza, like many years later, not even that long later, actually, we went to master it. And I was like, yo, you heard the kick and snare. He was like, he was like, whatever. He never, never, everything wavered over the water. And then like 10 years later, though, he was like, yo, I got it. Like I said it to him again. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. And I was like, I don't know if he ever really knew. Also, the other thing is that he didn't produce that record, which I didn't realize. True master produced it. And true master and dirty at mastering got in a fist fight over credit on the record. And that's why if you look at the record, it says, and mastered by Tom the referee coin.
SPEAKER_01The referee.
SPEAKER_02Because he got between everyone and he kicked everyone out and he took them aside and he said, Come tomorrow and leave that bullshit wherever it's at. Don't bring them dudes. And then we want to finish it the next day.
SPEAKER_00Can I bring something else? You know, talking about profile, we've talked about Jive. And I just want to mention something about those two labels I think is really important. I think they were very much at the forefront of signing uh rap artists from outside of New York. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Jive was a king of looking at regional reports.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I would attribute that to Barry Weiss. Yes.
SPEAKER_03I got too short. Yeah, I rem I remember one time And U G I realized that like Barry Weiss was just paying attention to all the stuff. Everything was right. You know how you did that?
SPEAKER_02You called up one-stops and distributed. But he remembered everything.
SPEAKER_03I rode in an elevator once I had a conversation with him, and I would name something and be like, oh yeah, I met the guy, and he would just look, he had an index in the head of everything that was going on.
SPEAKER_00But Barry Weiss is a very I and and by the way, I just also want to say shout out to my very uh Ann Carly. Ann Carly. Me and Ann came up together and we're still in touch, and I love Ann. Yeah. Um but Barry was such an interesting guy because he was he s knew everything that was happening on a radio playlist. He knew the program directors, he knew what was selling. He was a really before data became like a big He was the first research guy. He was the research guy. I remember being at a wedding for another industry person, and Barry showed up there, and it's this is it, St. Patrick's Cathedral, okay? He was working the whole fucking room, the whole cathedral, you know, talking to the program directors and the retailers and all this stuff.
SPEAKER_03But Barry and and Corey, you know, with Corey, Corey also got into he got really into research and yeah, yeah, I mean, but but but but they were both looking outside of New York.
SPEAKER_02I mean, DJ Quick is a crazy one because he had a tape, the red tape, that was huge in California. That shit was banging in Oakland, and he's from LA, and they sold at the Rhodium Swap Meeting. I got that tape at the Crenshaw swap meet going to get hats, and I tried to find them, but there's no Instagram back then. It's impossible to find guys. I finally found Greedy Greg because of Tony A, who did the tapes at the Rhodei. That's how I found him. And he was like, Oh, we just signed the profile records. Oh, wow. I was like a couple of weeks late. And that record, and that record, that first quick record, is exactly the demo minus a couple of seconds and non-appearances.
SPEAKER_03I actually I actually remastered that for Sony, did a vinyl release a couple years ago for Record Store Day. I remastered that first record. I was like, I was like listening to it, I was like, wow, it's so good.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, it's interesting because I think predating rap, you know, a lot of these labels back in the 60s and the 70s would pick up regional records for top 40. 100%. You know, but I I think that it's important to recognize that they were really sort of I I'm and I'm sorry if I'm overlooking any other labels that were doing it, but they just stand out to me because they had great success with it. And and also Who Here remembers?
SPEAKER_02I mean Java had E40 because of that. That's like a 40, they got short UG. They always seem to be UGK, yeah. They were always pretty keyed in on the Bay Area.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and who here remembers what?
SPEAKER_00Who here remembers when the Source magazine published a trade publication? Yes, I remember. I can't remember the name of it. Uh but it was like this oversized, glossy. It didn't last for too long. But I was Dave invited me, I don't know if it was Jonathan or Dave, but I think it was probably Dave, to write an editorial. And I wrote this big editorial. Has New York fallen the fuck off or what?
SPEAKER_02I've seen it. You showed you.
SPEAKER_00I showed it to you because I had to. Uh but it was basically, I think it was pretty good. It stated how New York was uh starting to lose its edge, starting to lose its market share because there were so many.
SPEAKER_02I mean, you were the first person who who hit me the fact that Texas was a huge market and California was a huge market outside of New York. Because I I never thought about that. And I remember being on tour, this is crazy, I was Eric B. Rockin's road manager. I got I got two shorts tape. They opened he opened for us in San Jose and in Oakland, and he killed it. He killed it. They knew every fucking word. Right. We didn't know what the fuck this guy was. To us, it was it seemed old school. He was very base, very simple to us. And I got the tape, and it had the hand, the Playboy bunny on it, dangerous music, or 85 girls, I think. And um, he was managed then by Lionel B, who was a promoter. We're for Al Heyman. And I got the tape, and literally, Eric B would be like, I played it on the bus, and they was like laughing. And Eric B was like, yo, play your man shit for jokes. Right. And it was too short. And I got off tour and I I sat with Russell and I said, This tape right here, I don't know what the sauce is, but this shit is crazy in California. Right. And they they passed. They were like, we don't get it. And I told Too Short that, and he told me his dream was to be on Def Jam and to be Matchman, and that he had Russell and Leore's cards in his wallet for 20 years. That was his inspiration to make it. And I was just like, wow. But but that was like the first time I thought about the whole country because I was so New York centric. And even everything I saw in was New York centric.
SPEAKER_01Sure. And that and that for me, it was years later. Um, you know, I was in at Wild Pitch in the mid-90s, um, and Stu Fine was like that. Like he was very much like, you know, he'd send me out to the Bay Area, you know, exactly. And he's like, hey, go, go, go.
SPEAKER_02Oh, he had the coup.
SPEAKER_01But we had the coup, he's like, go check up on uh JT the bigger figure. You know, he's like, I, you know, he was always looking for other stuff. He had was it street military, I think were for Texas, something like that. Like he had he had all these other groups, you know. Obviously, everything started with the New York. And and for me, I mean, I'm you know, like you, it was like everything I was I only you know, New York.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I liked NWA because they sounded like New York.
SPEAKER_01There was there was good stuff coming out in other areas, but they had to sound like New York.
SPEAKER_00Brian Brian Turner, by the way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, genius.
SPEAKER_00Genius.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's the thing about hieroglyphics, too, because I was thinking that's why I signed Ted.
SPEAKER_02That's why I signed him because he sounded like a I was like, oh, it's native tongues from California. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01It all kind of sounded like something we could digest. And then I remember going to the Bay Area and going to visit record stores and going in there. Leopold's Leopold's, you know, uh City One Stop, my man with the one-eye.
SPEAKER_02What was his name? Walter. Oh, Walter with the one eye.
SPEAKER_00Remember Daria from Leopold's? She was a big hip-hop and pushed a lot.
SPEAKER_01But I remember like just going in, like, we had just dropped like, I don't know, like OC at the time, and uh Organized had just dropped a stress album, Organized Confusion. So I'm going in the stores looking for those records, and it's like, no, I'm I'm not finding anything from RBL Posse. I'm finding RBL Posse, uh Young Lay, you know, it was all these groups I had never heard of. And they're all the prominent displayed groups. And I was just like, that's that's what made me really appreciate, even though it might not be for me, it made me appreciate that there was more regional things that work for people that, you know, I mean Murder Dog magazine is built on that. Murder Dog, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, you also had a very fertile uh radio climate there in San Francisco.
SPEAKER_01What was it? Davy uh David, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, KME L and Tech and Swift, yeah, yeah. Billy Jam. And it was K U S F K US F and then even, you know, uh Kevin Cash. Kevin Cash.
SPEAKER_02KME L would be very Yeah, because Tech and Sweat was KMEL and they played everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it you had a lot of elements there. Great retail, great radio. You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then uh I was gonna say that uh the the for uh profile profile sold to Arista, and I feel like that that was a uh like that was like the there was like this gobble gobble moment for a lot of indies in that moment. Having I mean having everybody too. And that really that that really I think did it did a number on I mean Rockus was spending a lot of money, right? Oh way too much. But they but way too much, but we get the benefits of the records. Sure, we get the benefits of those records. A lot of those indies that used to be putting out those type of records were at majors that weren't even. I mean, that was a big thing. They didn't keep a single Arista didn't keep anybody from profile. They were just they just kind of or and they didn't they didn't even pursue a I don't think maybe that maybe quick. Quick got a record out. Uh Run DMC got a record out, but I don't think it was a record that they should have gotten out. Yeah, it wasn't so good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh Electra Records era was the groups we brought in.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02All Dirty Bastard, Pete Roxy L Smooth, Dell the Funky Homo Sapien, Um, Brand Nubian, Graham Poobah, who is in Brand Nubian, uh KMD, which had MF Doom in it, and uh there's a some something else I'm probably forgetting. I mean, leaders in the MSO Bus Range.
SPEAKER_00And you had a great boss there.
SPEAKER_02I did. I just got Bob Krasnow who gave me enough rope to hang myself. And every time I've been successful, it's when I get enough rope to hang myself.
SPEAKER_00Bob Krasnow, by the way, when Dela stared breaking, Bob Krasnow called Tommy Boy and he said, Oh, we'd like to uh pick up Dela Sol from you guys. And no, no, you know, we're not gonna No, are you kidding? This is like eh. So instead they picked up Dante. Krasnow, but yeah, so Krasnow was smart. He was smart. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02He was he was also um he trusted his AR guys. Okay. He was like, you know, either goes.
SPEAKER_00He was an AR guy. Right.
SPEAKER_02He's he signed Parliament Funkadelic. Wow. So, you know, and and a million other things. So Richard Pryor and all this other cool shit, and Nita Baker, and he was a really smart guy. Oh my god. He was um he was uh he's also like he was like a very uh interesting guy. He's a blue-collar guy from Cleveland who had worked for James Brown, but he was like also very intellectual. He collected art, great art collector, yeah. You know, he was like a very multi-tiered, complicated guy who was my my favorite boss I ever had. But yeah, so I signed all those groups because he let me do it. That's all right, that's right.
SPEAKER_00I was saying um yeah, he was a that sort of uh person in the music industry. You don't see as much as a Mo kind of guy. You know, Lenny Warniker. Yeah, exactly. Mo Austin, those kind of guys. Yeah, where they had sort of interesting personalities, v interests, and you know, they understood their staff and their artists, and it was you know, just it's a different day and age. And I don't want to d uh disparage any of the the label heads now because it's just a different gang.
SPEAKER_01Totally, totally. I feel like it's there's I feel like it's more not that it it wasn't always business, but I just feel like it's it's strictly business now. There's no connection.
SPEAKER_03That's what I was gonna say about about that is like is like you know, uh Camp Low is a good example. Camp Low had ski, obviously, it was amazing, but Camp Low themselves were they were really unknown. And you know, we we managed to you know get them known to the to the extent that we did. And it's not not that they were incredible, but it's like it's it wasn't like we looked at the metrics and been like, the metrics are there already. We started from you know, we started from scratch.
SPEAKER_02I mean a lot of the metrics back then was just buzz. Like, you know, like the reason I signed dirty is because you had to be an idiot not to know that was gonna happen. Right, right, right. It was like that was like basically looking at research. Yeah, I mean I yeah.
SPEAKER_00But the research was the art with other was other artists that you were. That's it, that's it. Right. You know, it's that you know like daddy out and then Prince Paul and Daylight.
SPEAKER_03But you could take a chance in a way and you could get something that would be really difficult to do difficult to hit now because you have to have a proven thing. And sometimes sometimes the best way around is to do something that's unexpected. Yeah, sure. And that would happen.
SPEAKER_02I mean, going to zero to sixty nowadays is impossible. Yeah. Like everything gets signed because it's already at sixty.
SPEAKER_03Right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, one of the other things I just want to hit uh today is that one of the great, I think, legacies for rap from that era is not just um business and all of that, and you know, the artistic evolutions. But I really love the fact that there's so many of the employees that I hired or worked with for many years, and I see this at all these different labels where hip-hop really brought up this whole generation of great executive talent, great entrepreneurs, the entrepreneurial entrepreneurial spirit in rap was just is, was and is just incredible.
SPEAKER_02Because people had no choice.
SPEAKER_00But they didn't necessarily have to, you know, they didn't necessarily all become, you know, the star like Chris Atlas, okay? Yeah, absolutely. I was just gonna bring that up. He's a great example, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's uh He was he was you know just fresh in Tommy Boy when we were at uh you know 406 Sixth Avenue, Fat Beats, and you know, he would come through all the time and and here we are 2026 and he's the president of Fat Beats, you know.
SPEAKER_04So Dante.
SPEAKER_01Dante. Yeah, Will's.
SPEAKER_03But all the all the way to all the all the way to somebody like Jay-Z. I mean watching watching Jay-Z. Jay Jay-Z used to like come into rooms at profile, and you get the sense that he was like measuring, okay, this is what it's gonna take to do this. This is what and he goes to Def Jam and he does he does that, you know, he be builds that and it's like, you know, and it's it's uh it was it was amazing to see, and like all the clothing and everything, it was the entrepreneurial spirit was was exploding. Exploding. And we had, you know, so the perfect storm, I think you had uh the the fact that the indies were still in it and and and the majors were were putting in money, but putting in money, but also like well, we don't really know what it is, and so they would still take take some chances based on that, and then just uh just uh uh and the you know the music was just like and you had these managers who are coming from nowhere.
SPEAKER_00I mean they like oh I used to be a drug dealer. Yeah, they made it up on the spot. They made it up on the spot. It wasn't like, oh yeah, well, I'm just gonna go.
SPEAKER_02Don't get it fucked up. Russell made it up on the spot. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like people, you know, you learn on the job. You learn on the job. What was my skill set at this doing the AR? It was nothing. I had no skill set.
SPEAKER_01I knew what I liked. But but these guys have talent right there. It's like, you know.
SPEAKER_00These managers were smart for uh to a large degree, you know, because they had been out there already working on the streets. They knew the economics, they knew how to read people, they knew how to like you know.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I asked for how did you do it? He said, if I could sell drugs, I could do this. All right.
SPEAKER_03So here's the AR question. Were you guys were you both sequent like crazy about sequ uh album sequencing for me was like a real game? It all depended.
SPEAKER_02It depends who I'm working with. Like, so if you're working with Pete, like you're not gonna, you know, Pete Rock's got that. You don't have to worry about it. So it all depends. Paul is gonna, you know, yeah, Paul's gonna do it. Prince Paul's gonna do that. Um, I didn't really trip on that too much. That's not really my responsibility. If it was a dud at the front, you know, you always know that you always want to have your first true. You always want your best songs top three. Front load it. Yeah, you front load everything. And you always want the one thing I was always Chuck D taught me this. Um, if you listen to First Public Enemy, it people play tapes, flipped over perfectly. No lag time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So if you have if you have a box that plays or a cassette, so I always tried to get my run times very similar. That's great. That's very good.
SPEAKER_00Shock J was very conceptual. Yeah, yeah. You're like, you know, he's a genius. We weren't gonna tell you you want to run that way. Yeah, because it was a whole lot of things. It was a movie, it was a movie, right? Each one of them was like a little movie. Very cinematic, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, and and like, you know, there's you know, you're not gonna tell Buster Rhymes how to sequence anything. He's right, right.
SPEAKER_01Well, especially now, but maybe back then, you know.
SPEAKER_02He was always like that. It's no there's no point. And you know, Rizard, dirty, he's he did that. He he knew what to do. So it wasn't, you know, I never really tripped on that too much. I'm more I was more um mixes. I was more too. You know, I was always really anal about the mixes because I always want to make sure the vocals are loud enough, right? And I always did, I was like one of those guys, I don't know who taught me this, maybe you told me a mo. I always did like a million passes. I like vocal up at 1.5, you know, always always vocal up, vocal up, snare up, all that. And I always did tons and tons of passes. Maybe I'll I saw from Hank. Maybe Hank Shockley, but vocal ups, vocal up, yeah, yeah, vocal upon it.
SPEAKER_00There was always a consideration, like a radio edit. That too. That was a big thing. And also I would say House of Pain is a great example. We jump around. We're bringing in Pete Rock to do the mix uh on that track, opened it up to a much more hardcore New York audience. It wasn't. I was there.
SPEAKER_02I was there when you mixed it. Wow. Eric walked in and I didn't bring in Pete.
SPEAKER_00I'm I don't know, I'm trying to remember.
SPEAKER_02XL did it. It was XL in that's who the mix was done for first. It was done from England because they called me to get clearance.
SPEAKER_00It was are you sure? I thought I thought maybe Kevin Maxwell or someone else were. I don't think so. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh because I got the call for the clearance for Pete's verse, and and and um they didn't want to give it to him. We gave it to him finally. Um, because we distributed XL in America.
SPEAKER_00That helped legitimize them with the New York hip right now. Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02I mean, when when so I went to the studio um with Eric, and Eric had a look on his face ever last. He was mad, like type mad.
SPEAKER_01You're always mad. Oh, yeah, exactly. Mad mad last.
SPEAKER_02So he was like, Yo, D, yo D, let me talk to you. And we went outside and he was like, Yo, how come he didn't rap on my joint? And I was like, Oh no, go ask him. So we went and talked to Pete, and he was like, I was like, go ask him. He's like, I don't want to offend him. I was like, yo, and I was like, yo, Pete, yo, Eric wants you to rock on it. And Pete was like, Oh word, yo, help me write it. And they wrote it. That's why you hear it, it sounds, it's really everlast flow. Gotcha. Blood stains the ground, I jump around, you know. That's like the everlast way of rapping. That's how we did it. And that and then I became like, you know, that gave them legitimacy. That record was like, because they were so big, that was like, for lack of a better word, don't call me Jack Harlow. That was like the black version, right? Yeah, speaking of.
SPEAKER_00Also, shout out to Muggs, who I think is okay right now.
SPEAKER_03Well, speaking of, uh, and that was the other thing about that era was just that uh that Premier and Pete had both come up at that certain point after, you know, coming after after and around Marley, you know, and just like there was that that certain moment and they were super producers, super. You gotta put tip in there too, man. Well, well, the I was gonna say that whole crew that that whole crew that hung out at large preferences house tip and all those guys, it was just it was just so much, so many beat makers, so much talent. And uh at the at the point where there was that wild little bit of wild west moment, you know, before the lawsuit started going to prevent it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, the lawsuits are the whole episode.
SPEAKER_02No one no one was clearing anything.
SPEAKER_03But I mean, there was the pain of our existence. Then they retroactively for the for the Day La re-release, right? They had to go through that.
SPEAKER_02I mean, Mo is like maybe the first person to get caught. We never thought we had to we cleared stuff on that album, but we didn't think we had to clear the skit and then the fucking turtles.
SPEAKER_00You know, like flowing eddy.
SPEAKER_02That's not music.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah. And it's yeah, but this is a check. That's not music.
SPEAKER_02All the notes let you clear the I know joint.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I I don't want to, you know, paint it with too broad a brush, but it hadn't really, you know, the these were guys who perceived everything they did as art.
SPEAKER_04Right, right.
SPEAKER_00And uh so the sampling thing, it took them a long time to wrap their heads around that. Whereas we, you know, could easily do business with George Clinton and other people.
SPEAKER_02I had a Grand Poobah record that was over Black Cow on 360 that Macio produced, and Steely Dan denied us usage. And then Peter Guns and them come out that don't clear it, and they get sued to the city. I got the Grand Poobah one. You do? Yeah. I need that. Yeah, that's a crazy one. The Macio joint. Yeah, Maceo was mad for like 10 minutes. He's doing like a singing chorus. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00This podcast shall forever go down as the the moment when it comes to the case. Yeah, right, right.
SPEAKER_01He has something to do with the podcast show. We actually gotta kind of wrap it up here because we're going. I mean, we could be talking for hours and hours, obviously, but um this has been great. I mean, thank you all for for all the stories and the and the behind the scenes information. Um what I want to do right now is kind of get an idea of what's going on now. Uh D, I know you just uh recently dropped a book, Son of the City. Yeah, yeah, I wrote it.
SPEAKER_02I was like two years ago, almost a year and a half ago. I have a book, Son of the City. Um we we wrote a script and sold it to Lionscape. I don't think it's ever getting made, but they paid us for it, so that's good. Um you know, working with Sko, got my guy Highly Supreme. I'm about to sign the 30 Tigers and and a couple other things I'm working on, just you know, still got my foot in the game, yeah, trying to do things. Sko's playing with Jada Kiss today at this block party. So, you know, I'm all Trying to do something. And if people want to find uh you on socials, Dante Ross at Instagram and all that, please don't DM me anything. Nothing. If it is a link, send links, not files.
SPEAKER_01So Monica, what are you uh up to these days?
SPEAKER_00Memoir.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you need to do that already. I mean that's overdue.
SPEAKER_01Your Instagram page is amazing. Crazy. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00You can find it at MoLove for NYC. I try you know, I have all these incredible archival materials that I saved.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you saved everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I exactly. There's a fine line between collecting and hoarding, I think. That's blown past that a long time ago. But I do have archives going back to like 81 and some incredible stuff. So I post that occasionally, and but it's time for the memoir.
SPEAKER_02And you sent you sent me the African Medallion, the De La Soldier one.
SPEAKER_00I did.
SPEAKER_01Awesome.
SPEAKER_03Will so actually uh a funny thing is uh I I went went back to school and I got my PhD. I teach uh music at LaGuardia Community College, including hip-hop history.
SPEAKER_00I walk past her all the time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there it there it is. Yeah, including hip-hop history. It's funny because run run run went there, run went there, and Ralph McDaniels uh went there. I love Ralph. Joe Conzo, uh a bunch of other you know, old school heads. Uh so I teach teach uh uh music history there, including hip-hop history. Uh so it's yeah, so it's it's uh it's been incredible. Yeah, we had of course we had a Ralph there and Roxanne Chante and and a bunch of people there, Herc and a bunch of people uh come to the college, and uh it's been been a really incredible ride. Yeah, that's dope. So yeah. That's so dope.
SPEAKER_00Take the Q39 pass there. Oh, yeah. People want to find out. I know exactly.
SPEAKER_01Will Fulton 718. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you all once again. I mean, this has been incredible. Thank you. It was great. Thank you so much. I don't know what's gonna come out when it comes out.
SPEAKER_00They gotta send it out to the clip farm, Dante.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I gotta clear the samples. We gotta clear the clear samples. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01That's it. Make sure uh you go to fatbeeats.com for all your music needs and uh fat beats on all socials. Welcome back, fat beats. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Until next time, peace.
SPEAKER_00Damn well, the fat beats.
